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Thank you for the rewriting of the intro, it's better now. About the 10% figure you gave, is it applicable? most songs have a lenght of 3-4 minutes, that means 180-240 seconds. Their 10% samples would be 18-24 seconds, which is always less than 30s. CG 14:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Additional notes: We've been discussing both Ogg Quality Settings and Bitrate, which are not directly correlated. People are used to encoding MP3s with a fixed bitrate, meaning a 96kbs file sounds worse than a 128kbs file. However, in Ogg Vorbis, you do not specify a bitrate, you specify a "Q" value, normally between 0 and 10. The format is adaptive and variable, and so two songs of identical length, recorded at the same Q setting, may result in different average bitrates. If OGG Vorbis is the preferred format (and I think it should be), then we should NOT specify a bitrate, but instead specify a Q (quality) setting. Phidauex 21:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The current guideline says "music samples serve as tools for a better understanding of the article, so insert only relevant samples". It doesn't make it clear when a sample is relevant and when is not. Seemingly it's already agreed that not every mentioned song needs a sample, not even every song with an article (I actually agree that there are a lot of articles about songs which don't really deserve them). But how about recommending adding at least one sample to every article about a musician or musical style? Jogers (talk) 12:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First of all, I should apologize for having come to this discusssion rather late, but after having read through the guideline proposal, and this page, I find no mention of guidelines for any music other than modern songs with a duration of less than five minutes. Many works of "classical" music (I'm using the term classical in it's broadest sense) are longer than an hour, some forms such as Opera and Oratorio can exceed three hours.

Thanks for the response, Phidauex. I also think that a 30 second sample per movement/section of a longer work is acceptable under fair use provisions. But, I do understand very well how tricky copyright considerations can be; I nearly got sued by Boosey & Hawkes over an "unlicensed public perfomance" when I was still in college. If anything, classical music copyright holders are more vicious. It should also be mentioned that although a composer may be long dead, the performing edition (sheet music) may be copyrighted, so the number of truely free alternatives may be considerably less than you might think.

Being an old-time Wikipedian I know that this concerns copyrighted music samples and free-content music samples. If we managed to obtain a free-content Wagner opera we'd want the quality to be pretty high both in the full files and samples (to illustrate motifs and whatnot). These guidelines need to be brushed up a little, it needs to be clear to the user that a guideline demanding low quality concerns copyrighted samples only. --Oldak Quill 13:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Also is there a limit on how many songs from one album can be sampled? Example Hi Hi Puffy AmiYumi (album) links to a sample for each and every track, and I'm sure that they are not all notable and not all relevant. But how should it be culled? thanks Rossrs 12:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

10% of the song lenght is not cutting it. It works fine for long songs, but 12 seconds of an oldy that doesn't repeat it's refrain and chorus doesn't even make it through the first line. - Peregrine Fisher 06:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It's not clear to me why a detailed fair use justification is required in addition to the template {{Non-free audio sample}}. Aren't the reasons supplied already a thorough justification for fair use? I find it difficult to imagine a case in which one could add some useful justification to what's already said in the template. I raise the issue because one of my uploads, Image:Chicago - Look Away.ogg, was marked for deletion because it lacked a detailed fair use justification (although, admittedly, I should have noted the source more carefully). Dcoetzee 18:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply] 2b1af7f3a8